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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Duke of York
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I was asked at the Club last night to post something re: WotR factions for our putative 25mm campaign

Troops Types/Bases
Assuming 40mmx40mm bases:
A fairly safe formula will be basic troop types:
Dismounted Men-at-Arms (fully armoured infantry - the gentry and esquires) - 4 figures
Retinue Archers (ie wearing their lord's coat of livery etc - the retainers) - 3 figures
Billmen/Spearmen (ordinary foot soldiers, possibly wearing a lord's badge, probably not - the tenants) - 3 figures
Archers (ordinary archers, possibly wearing a lord's badge, probably not - the tenants) - 3 figures

The men-at-arms will be a small % of the various forces; using ACOS/ACOP force generation you could be looking at a "lord's contingent" of 2-3 men-at-arms bases, 6-9 retinue archer bases, 3-4 billmen, 4-6 levy archers but there is a lot of variation.... Noblemen can be distinguished from non-noble men-at-arms by including a standard bearer on their bases.

Standards/Banner/Badges/Livery

Standards are the square flags, stiffened along the top so it was always on the fly, easily carried on foot and bearing either the lord's coat of arms or a single badge on a field which may have been the lord's livery colour(s) but not always. For our purposes, the lord himself should have a coat-of-arms standard, but sub-ordinate contingents may have a badge standard (taking Richard, Duke of York, as an example his coat-of-arms was the Plantagenet royal arms of England and France with a label of three points, but his badges included the Black Bull of Clare, the White Lion of March, the Black Dragon of Ulster, the Falcon and Fetterlock of York, (conjecturally) the White Wolf of Mortimer and of course, the White Rose! Conceivably contingents raised in his Honour of Clare, Earldom of March, Earldom of Ulster and the Duchy of York would have mustered under the different badges...)

Banners are the long swallow-tailed flags which bear (along with the Cross of St George - a habit adopted during the HYW by English forces in the field) a primary heraldic badge, plus secondary badges and possibly a motto, on a field of livery colour(s). These banners may not have been practical on the battlefield as opposed to a procession because even a mounted standard bearer would struggle to manage something up to 18' long and 3-4' deep whilst a foot soldier would have found it almost impossible...

Badges are, as mentioned, an heraldic emblem and most lords had a number of them. We associate the Sun-in-Splendour with Edward IV, the White Boar with Richard of Gloucester, the Bear and Ragged Staff with Warwick the Kingmaker and the Swan with Edward, Prince of Wales etc. but the Earl of Oxford had Blue Boars as well as White Molets (stars) with Streamers. Throughout the WotR there are references to lords handing out hundreds or even thousands of badges, presumably in the form of cloth patches which followers could sew onto their jackets (left breast and/or centre of the back seem common locations). Only a minority of followers would be retainers and wear the full coloured coats of livery (for example, the Percy Earls of Northumberland could call on some 5,000 tenants but their retinue was commonly 30-odd; the wealthy Duke of Buckingham retained 8 knights and 16 esquires for "peace and war" in 1442 and his riding retinue was less than 100)

Livery colours are found on the banners and by convention it seems that where there are two colours, the top one (usually listed first of the pair as "x" over "y") would be worn on the right side of a livery jacket and the bottom one on the left. Amongst the Yorkists it seems that lords and gentry who held lands directly from Richard Duke of York may have adopted a custom of reversing his colours or those of his son Edward

Factions:
I will have a go at Edward of March and Richard of York. For the other Yorkists we really need someone to opt for the (junior) Neville Earls of Warwick and Salisbury (a potentially big job, particularly if the other junior Neville branch lords of Montague, Fauconberg, Abergevenny etc are included), whilst other good choices would be the Earl of Essex and less importantly more "mercenary" types under Sir Robert Ogle or (initially a Yorkist then Lancastrian) Sir Andrew Trollope. For the Lancastrians we could do with the following: Earl of Northumberland, Earl of Oxford, Duke of Somerset, Earl of Shrewsbury plus the French under Pierre de Breze, but possibly also "wild Irish" under the Earl of Wiltshire. This would allow for a start to be made with the 1455 and 1459 campaigns

Hobilar magazine once had an article listing the following liveries:
Edward Neville, Lord Abergavenny [d.1476] - green and white
William Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel [d.1487] - red and white
John Touchet, Lord Audley [d.1490] - yellow and red
John, Viscount Beaumont [d.1460] - white
William, 7th Lord Berkeley [active until at least 1483] - red
John Bouchier, Lord Berners [d.1474] - yellow and green
Humphrey Stafford, Duke of Buckingham [d.1460] - black and red
(also Henry Stafford d. of Buckingham, d.1483).
Sir Thomas Burgh/Borough of Gainsborough [d.1496] - blue
George, Duke of Clarence [d.1478] - murrey and blue
Thomas, Lord Clifford [d.1455] - white
Brooke, Lord Cobham [Edward d. 1464, John d. 1515] - black and red
Sir Marmaduke Constable [d. 1518] - red
Sir John Conyers [d.1490?] - white
Sir Richard Croft [d.1509] - white and blue
Randolf/Ranulph Lord Dacre of Gilsland [d.1461] - four stripes barry yellow and blue
Sir Richard Fiennes, Lord Dacre of the South [d.1483] - white
Thomas Courtney, Earl of Devon [1st, d.1458, 2nd d.1461] - red
Digby family - blue
Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset [d.1501] - white and dark red [murrey]
(also known as 3rd Lord Grey, 8th Lord Ferrers, Earl of Huntingdon in 1471, Marquis of Dorset in 1475)
Edward, Earl of March/Edward IV [d.1483] - murrey and blue
Edward, Prince of Wales [d.1471] - red and black
Henry Bouchier, Earl of Essex [1st d.1483, 2nd d.1529] - black and green
Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter [d.1475] - white and red
William Neville, Lord Fauconberg, Earl of Kent [d.1463] - white and blue
Walter Devereaux, 7th Baron Ferrers [d.1485] - white and red
Sir Edward Grey, 2nd Lord Grey, 7th Lord Ferrers of Groby [d.1461] - green
Sir John Radcliffe, Lord Fitzwalter [d.1461] - blue
William Bourchier, Lord Fitzwaurin or Fitz-Warine [still active 1469] - white and red [?]
Henry Lord Grey of Codnor [d.1496] - red and green
Edmund, Lord Grey of Ruthin and Earl of Kent in 1465 [d.1490] - red
Sir James Harrington [d.after 1497] - black [?]
William, Lord Hastings [d.1483] - dark red [or purple] and blue
Henry VI [d.1471] - white and blue
Henry VII - white and green
William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke [d.1469] - blue and red
John Howard, Duke of Norfolk [d.1485] - red
Thomas Howard [d.1524] - red and white
Thomas Talbot, Viscount Lisle or L'Isle [d.1470] - blue
Robert, 3rd Lord Hungerford and Lord Molynes [d.1464] - red and green
Francis, Viscount Lovell [died after 1487?] - blue and yellow
Thomas Fitzalan, Lord Maltravers, 12th Earl of Arundel in 1487 [d.1524] - black
John Neville, Lord Montague, earl of Northumberland 1464-1470 [d.1471] - red and black
Walter Blount, Lord Mountjoy - blue
John Neville 2nd Earl of Westmoreland [d.1461] - black and red
John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk [Ist d.1461, 2nd d.1476] - blue and red
Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland [2nd earl d.1455, 3rd earl d.1461, 4th earl d.1489] - red and black
John De Vere, Earl of Oxford [Ist d. 1462, 2nd d. 1512] - orange or orange tawney
John Paston [d.1479] - red
Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke [d.1495] - white and green
Edward Poynings [active in 1485] - red
Richard of Gloucester/Richard III [d.1485] - murrey and blue
Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers and Lord Scales [d.1483] - green [but noted as blue and tawney at a tournament of 1478]
Richard Woodville, Earl Rivers [d.1491] - green
Thomas, Lord Roos [d.1464] - blue and yellow
Edmund, Earl of Rutland [d.1460] - murrey and blue
Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury, 2nd Earl of Westmoreland, [d.1460] - red and black
John, Lord Scrope of Bolton [d. 1498] - white
John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury [1st d. 1460, 2nd d. 1473] - red and black
Henry Beaufort, Duke of Somerset [d.1464] - white and blue
Thomas, Lord Stanley later Earl of Derby [d.1504] - orange tawney and green
William Stanley [d.1495] - red
John De La Pole, Duke of Suffolk [d.1491] - blue and yellow
Humphrey Talbot [active until at least 1483] - black and white
Rhys Ap Thomas 'The Raven' [active until at least 1485] - white
Richard Tunstall [d.1491] - black and white [?]
Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick [d.1471] - red
Lionel, 6th Lord Welles [d.1461] - black and red?
John, Lord Wenlock [d.1471] - white
Henry Willoughby - blue
Robert, Lord Willoughby [d.1501] - red and white
Richard, Duke of York [d.1460]- blue and white
John, Lord Zouche [d.1526] - black and murrey [murrey and purple were often confused]

Town contingents and militias:
1455 Coventry - green and red
1461 Rye - red
1470 Canterbury - red

RCS


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:34 am 
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Earl of Pembroke
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Posts: 135
Great info Rob.

Here's the link to the Perfect Captain web site for A Crown of Paper, their WotR campaign rules. I think it looks like a really fun game system and would be especially good if we make it a whole club project and get quite into it.
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/acop.html

and here's the link for the battle rules (A coat of steel) page
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/acos.html

Here's a direct link to the download page, scroll to the bottom
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/request.html

Take a look at the basing on the page linked above and these links below.
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/lancaster.html
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/york.html

I think the Yorkist lords with 3 figs to a base look better than the ones with 2 and approx 3 figs per base looks good overall but I don't think we need to be too perscriptive on numbers of figures. As long as we all stick to 40mm square bases we can just do what looks good. The Rule of Cool wins.

We should base them all together on a Monday night though so that the ground matches.

As Rob says the retinues were quite small, most of the figs can be quite generic, which is good as it means we only have to paint a few specific ones for the lords and then use a pool of others to fill out the armies.

Trev


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Earl of Warwick
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Location: Southend, Essex
Well, I've always been a Yorkist, so I'll have a go at one of the important protaganists.

Seeing as first come, first served is a good rule - I bagsie Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick. Might mean a bit of effort, but I think it will be worth it 8-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Earl of Northumberland
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Freddie and I have bought our boxes, I will be on the side of the house of Lancaster, tell me who to do.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Earl of Warwick
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Location: Southend, Essex
Just had a read of the main pages for both A Crown of Paper and A Coat of Steel.

Both come across really well, so I think it will be a good system to try out.

I'm guessing everyone will be using the Perrys plactics...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Duke of Somerset
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[i]hi guys i have just made up the box Perry plastics an have made as following 16 archers these can be shire or retainer and 24 bill an spear with among these the men at arms [ 2 standards 1 trumpeter/squire/i]. is it decided on the 40x40 if so i agree with that also the number of men per base is that also definate.I have decided as the majority seem York to paint Lancaster.I also propose that all buy one unit 3 figs of cavalry from perry metal so that when the armies meet up we can as in proper retinue combine our little groups into 1 body into a cav unit of mix retinue. I shall also from the same range be getting a box command try to confer on this so no duplications plus heralds and 1 gun. Have not made up mind on my retinue house yet. but as i will start painting archers at the weekend will do this afternoon.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Duke of Somerset
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if we go for the wild irish i expect the warlord 30 year war stuff could be used with a little conversion. I am painting 4 or five body of troop it would seem from the 2 box i have as the burgundians seem to have been used by york then my mercenary will be french. praps rob will confirm this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:46 pm 
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Duke of Somerset
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i see pod is going for lancaster to so better contact me on his family.I looking forward to this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Duke of Somerset
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RIGHT i AM GOING FOR hENRY bEAUFORT duke of Somerset


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Earl of Warwick
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Location: Southend, Essex
I see that Perry's do two commanders packs.

I'll order the Yorkist side (and dish out to the appropriate players) when I order my box of plastics.

WR13 - Yorkist command and Warwick on foot (Edward IV, Warwick, Fauconberg, Hastings, Gloucester and Salisbury)


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